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sreek011@gmail.com

Ertiga DDiS Engine Power Loss Problem

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Hi,

I own a Maruti Suzuki Ertiga ZDI

Purchased in Jul 2013

Age - 9 months

Odometer - 9000+

Problem:

The engine stops responding under the following conditions:

Gear - 5th

Driving Condition: Normal acceleration in 5th gear from sub 2000 rpm @ 2000 rpm

(post shifting to 5th gear from 4th gear)

Airconditioner - ON

Engine recovers after some time if the pedal is kept pressed, may be with some power loss (not sure)

If the pedal is released to bring the rpm down, the problem goes away and reappears at 2000 rpm

Status of the problem: Reported to Maruti authorized service center, Response/ clarification given not satisfactory and hence in doubt whether the problem will get resolved or not.

I observe the same problem reported by other people as well in the web.

Request all who are experiencing this problem to share information here about the problem as well as whether problem is addressed and if addressed how.

regards,

Sree

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Let me try to help you with a bit of technical insight ;the engine is the same used as in with the swift but the only difference is the turbo. Swift uses a Fixed Geometry turbo wereas Ertiga/Sx4 used Variable Geometry turbine.

The turbo lag is felt more prominent in FGT cars and you can feel the lag below 2000rpm in most car irrespective of the gear you are in.

Were as VGT has 2 turbine in the exhaust were the smaller one spins before hence lesser lag near idle rpm were as the other turbine spins at higher rpms ie around 2500 rpm is DDiS engine.

There is a flat spot around 2000rpm since one turbine is just starting to spin and other is at max (around this rpm the wastgate/valve opens/close) hence you feel a bit flat also it is more pronounced in the top gear hence you feel this.

Thats why nowaday we have tri-turbo engine which cater to boost at low-mid=high levels.

Edited by rssh

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Well, may be because of overdrive you may be witnessing the power loss. We have got many Ertiga Diesel owner's on ACI forum and they haven't had any problem like this.

Thanks for the response.

In fact I also did not face any problem initially. I have even gone for long drives.

By the way, there are comple of ertiga Diesel owners who raised this issue in other forums.

Anyways, if everybody is facing the problem then it is a design problem. If only some are facing, may be it needs to be taken as component failure probem.

regards,

-Sree

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Let me try to help you with a bit of technical insight ;the engine is the same used as in with the swift but the only difference is the turbo. Swift uses a Fixed Geometry turbo wereas Ertiga/Sx4 used Variable Geometry turbine.

The turbo lag is felt more prominent in FGT cars and you can feel the lag below 2000rpm in most car irrespective of the gear you are in.

Were as VGT has 2 turbine in the exhaust were the smaller one spins before hence lesser lag near idle rpm were as the other turbine spins at higher rpms ie around 2500 rpm is DDiS engine.

There is a flat spot around 2000rpm since one turbine is just starting to spin and other is at max (around this rpm the wastgate/valve opens/close) hence you feel a bit flat also it is more pronounced in the top gear hence you feel this.

Thats why nowaday we have tri-turbo engine which cater to boost at low-mid=high levels.

Thanks for the response.

Does it mean that all the Lineas, Manzaas and SX4s have the same problem.

They all share the same (may be with slight variation) Fiat Multijet engine 90BHP.

By the way, please note that the the problem occured with single passenger (the driver ) in the car. So we cant say that the car was overloaded!

I am a little confused. According to you, this behavior should be taken as normal/ acceptable/ expected behavior or as a problem to be addressed.

regards,

Sree

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Drive your Ertiga in correct powerband. Shift up above 2000rpm. Do not lug the engine (drive in upper gears at lower RPMs) and you wont face the problem.

Drive your car in Turbo power band.

Best of luck.

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Multijet 1.3 is notorious for initial power lags. When you shift to 2nd gear, it is notable that there is a considerable power lag. But as soon as you cross the 1700rpm mark, turbo kicks in and all your woes will be gone. This is the general character of this engine and can be seen in Linea and Punto. I am not sure about SX4, Dzire, Swift, Ritz, Ertiga, Manza, and a host of other cars who have employed the same engine.

I would totally agree with advises given by kdar.90HP.

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Let me try to help you with a bit of technical insight ;the engine is the same used as in with the swift but the only difference is the turbo. Swift uses a Fixed Geometry turbo wereas Ertiga/Sx4 used Variable Geometry turbine.

The turbo lag is felt more prominent in FGT cars and you can feel the lag below 2000rpm in most car irrespective of the gear you are in.

Were as VGT has 2 turbine in the exhaust were the smaller one spins before hence lesser lag near idle rpm were as the other turbine spins at higher rpms ie around 2500 rpm is DDiS engine.

There is a flat spot around 2000rpm since one turbine is just starting to spin and other is at max (around this rpm the wastgate/valve opens/close) hence you feel a bit flat also it is more pronounced in the top gear hence you feel this.

Thats why nowaday we have tri-turbo engine which cater to boost at low-mid=high levels.

Dear rssh, I have found this similar lag in my Linea which is too a VGT. Also in Punto there is a considerable lag and it is a FGT. So I think this to be the general character of the Multijet engine itself. The tri-turbo technology as said by you seems to be the solution. Thank you for elaborating on such technical aspects.

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Yes it is the characteristic of multijet engine , in FGT the lag is prominent in below 2000rpm and in VGT lag is there below 1500rpm with a little flat band from 2000-2300rpm. The saying there is no replacement for displacement is valid in this case but then nowadays we have supercharger and turbocharger both on same engine to provide more grunt out of smaller displacement.

Drive a Old Verna or i20 diesel and the lag is more prominent below 2000rpm. The most linear power delivery diesel engine I have driven is the 1.5 renault DCi engine in 82bhp guise.

Also don't forget to idle the engine for 30-60 seconds after a long drive it help the lubrication of turbo and cools it down. But in case of water cooled turbo engine (as Tjet) one can switch it off immediately.

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Yes it is the characteristic of multijet engine , in FGT the lag is prominent in below 2000rpm and in VGT lag is there below 1500rpm with a little flat band from 2000-2300rpm. The saying there is no replacement for displacement is valid in this case but then nowadays we have supercharger and turbocharger both on same engine to provide more grunt out of smaller displacement.

Drive a Old Verna or i20 diesel and the lag is more prominent below 2000rpm. The most linear power delivery diesel engine I have driven is the 1.5 renault DCi engine in 82bhp guise.

Also don't forget to idle the engine for 30-60 seconds after a long drive it help the lubrication of turbo and cools it down. But in case of water cooled turbo engine (as Tjet) one can switch it off immediately.

I understand the lag @ lower rpms

The problem I am facing is quite odd. In fifth gear with ac ON, all of a sudden @ 2000 rpm while acclerating from sub 2000 rpm (no lag at experienced @ 1850, 1900, 1950 etc), you feel no power. The engine is stuck at 2000 rpm and accelerator has no effect. Then gradualy it climbs up.

Does DDIS 90BHP engine have a drastic torque dip @ 2000 rpm?

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I would say that the band btw 2000-2400 is flat but there shouldn't take ages to cross it. Get the fuel filter checked may due to bad fuel the filter might have had taken in too much water ,read the owner manual to see how to remove the water from the filter. Better would be to get is checked by a neighbor hood garage.

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I haven't experienced such kinda thing in my Maruti Swift Dzire which is also powered by the same 1.3 Multijet engine but with an Fixed geometry turbo. Lag is there but is not as pronounced as in 90PS VGT version, reason being:

-Most of the cars with 1.3 Multijet FGT engine are not so heavy(except Fiat Punto) in their kerb weight, so engine power at lower rpm is considerable enough to propel the bodyshell.

-Cars featuring 90PS VGT Multijet engine are relatively heavier & some are even heavier than an 1.3 Diesel engine can lug in its Naturally aspirated(NA) avatar i.e in Lag zone, here 'Displacement matter matters'.

-There's negligible torque difference between FGT & VGT versions of same engine, even FGT & VGT torque band aren't much different in sub 2000rpm band.

So these factors does creates a difference in driveability in respective cars.

Personally i've experienced this 1.3 Multijet VGT 90PS engine a power dud in Manza as well as Linea below 2000rpm with very poor power delivery specially in higher gears but haven't seen or heard such thing as pronounced in Ertiga.

@sreek;

Since your car is already 9k+ on its odometer, so I think its time for its service.

For power loss this factor does play a major role, Burnt engine oil & 'CHOKED AIR FILTER' can be the real culprit here. Get your car thoroughly serviced as per its service schedule including its AIR FILTER must replaced alongwith other recommended consumables changed. I'm sure more 50% of you car's problem will be solved.

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I understand the lag @ lower rpms

The problem I am facing is quite odd. In fifth gear with ac ON, all of a sudden @ 2000 rpm while acclerating from sub 2000 rpm (no lag at experienced @ 1850, 1900, 1950 etc), you feel no power. The engine is stuck at 2000 rpm and accelerator has no effect. Then gradualy it climbs up.

Does DDIS 90BHP engine have a drastic torque dip @ 2000 rpm?

Dear Sree, It seems to be a problem with the fuel filter, as suggested by rssh and Dr.nishu, get it checked or replaced by a mechanic.

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Dear all,

Thanks for the responses

My car was examined by the Maruthi service station.

After doing "some cleaning and corrective work", I was told that the car was fine. I insisted that I should know the root cause and the corresponding counter measure.

A meeting with Maruthi representative was arranged and a test drive was taken to reproduce the problem.

The problem could not be reproduced!

The Maruthi representative accepted that there could be a problem though the condition was not reproduced. He recommended EGR cleaning.

The service head in the service station then said, EGR cleaning was already carried out (The most likely reason why the problem could not be reproduced)

Pls. note FIAT manual for 90 BHP doesnt talk about EGR valve cleaning schedule.

DDIS service manual says EGR valve should be cleaned every 30000 km, may be due to different ECU programming/ engine tuning.

In mycase the EGR valve had to be cleaned @ 9500 Km!

I am expecting that the the problem will reoccur.

The expected range of corrective measures if the problem reoccurs are ECU reprogramming, replacement etc...

I also got confirmation that there are many others who experienced similar problems.

My not so spirited driving style of driving in city would have made the problem to surface early.

Will keep you all posted.

Sree

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EGR Cleaning is recommended if you drive mostly in city area with stop n go traffic.

I own Punto 90HP and I got my EGR Cleaned on 30,000km though it is not mentioned in FIAT user manual. Also I cleaned intercooler as well.

As you have cleaned the EGR now I would suggest you to take your Ertiga to highway and drive it with some high speed as it will help to clean the impurities from EGR and intercooler.

My Punto is remapped by Wolf Moto and I have deleted EGR from my car ECU. I have switchable maps with options of 4 to choose from. :P

Check this link for more details about the Wolf Moto Remap.

http://www.teamfiat.co.in/engine-drivetrain/10884-remap-can-change-your-life-wolfmoto-switchable-remaps-6.html

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I don't really know if EGR cleaning is needed ,I haven't yet done the same on my car since I bought it. May be it was good in your case and Maruti diagnosed the issue fast and that is the pleasure in owning a brand with excellent service network.

@kdae90hp why not start a thread here itself ? Removing EGR is a simple process but you need to code the ECU not to open EGR valve.

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If initially your engine was performing well then the reason may be really simple.(1)Try renewing the fuel filter and see the performance (2) Renew the air filter for the engine intake. (3) The turbine blades wouldn't have developed exhaust deposits so soon.

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Dear all,

Thanks for the responses

My car was examined by the Maruthi service station.

After doing "some cleaning and corrective work", I was told that the car was fine. I insisted that I should know the root cause and the corresponding counter measure.

A meeting with Maruthi representative was arranged and a test drive was taken to reproduce the problem.

The problem could not be reproduced!

Since your car is freshly serviced & thoroughly checked. Now just compare it with a brand new ertiga from any known person or why not to have a Test Drive of showroom ertiga to know the difference, if it really exists then show it to Maruti service centre service manager if not then its well and good.

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Here is an update.

The problem reappeared within 2000 Kms (about little over a month back).

Appearance of the problem turned out to be erratic. It could happen below rpms below 2K as well as above 2K. Other conditions remained more less the same like AC on, 5th gear etc...

Thinking of the ordeal of reproducing the problem in the presence of Maruthi service people, I kept on postponing the visit.

Finally, I made a visit to the service station last weekend and thank God, the problem appeared once to their satisfaction. They experienced the vibration during power loss which happened briefly and accepted.

Now what?

I am told that they will write to Maruthi and do as per their advise.

I am yet to get a call from them.

Will update.

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As promised earlier, here is the update.

On recommendation from Maruti, my service station did the following:

- Replace the engine head

Diagnosis: The power loss is due to sticky valves caused by soot deposit

Action done: Done under warranty. The valves did have soot deposit as observed on the removed valves

- Remap the ECU. No reason why ECU should be remapped was given to my satisfaction.

Action done: ECU remapped. Unfortunately, Maruti did not share the power, torque characteristics of the ECU remap

They said power and torque was expected to improve.

I find the vehicle has become quieter compared to what it was earlier when I took it for a test drive.

The power loss problem was not observed during test drive (will have to wait and watch, hopefully, it won't come back)

Any change in fuel efficiency - I have to complete a couple of tankfuls before I can comment on it

While I appreciate the service from Maruti dealer, it was not effortless ... I had to spend a lot of time pursuing the matter.

The onus was completely on me to reproduce the erratic problem!

In my case, there was absolutely no indication on the dashboard instrument cluster.

The SDT (the device used for reading the error codes and to monitor the problem) also was of no use.

(When the problem was reproduced in the presence of Maruti Technician, the SDT did not say anything was wrong or throw any error code)

Further, to be fair, there are similar complaints from Fiat Punto users and others

(Pls. read: http://www.teamfiat.co.in/engine-compartment/8952-sudden-loss-power-while-overtaking.html)

Hence, to be fair to Maruti, we can generalize the problem to Fiat - Multijet engines.

I will try to add the tag myself, If there is a provision for the same (If there is no prvision, I request the moderators to do this for the benefit of all)

By the way, In my opinion, it is high time Fiat and other Multijet cars manufacturers should come clean on this issue and avoid hardship to the customers.

This may call for finding the root cause, finding the correct solution and implementation in all cars (if need be do recalls).

regards,

-Sree

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