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National Green Tribunal (orders and impact) - a discussion

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Impact

Manufactures cry foul

They say when they started go move towards new diesel plants and were in the process to make heavy investments they had seeked Govts policy in this regard for the next couple of years

The Govt did not reply

Instead removed subsidy on Diesel and let it be priced as per the international market pricing.

Manufacture in the absense of any clear policy by the Govt took this action of the Govt as a NOD in principle to the use of diesel in the future.

The manafucturers like honda and maruti in particular made heavy inveatments in this regard and are now feeling the heat.

They are coming up with IIT kanpur findings that say diesel vehicular pollution contributes only 2.5% of delhi cities pollution

CSE rubbishes these IIT Kanpurs reports and says Diesel in principle pollutes 25-27 times more than Petrol , in terms of the particulate matter pollution.

Other studies against Petrol says it contributes more to emissions of CO2 gas which is a major issue when it comes to Global warming

More over they say it will take more litres of Petrol to achieve what a few litres of Diesel can achieve , making it an inappropriate choice as a fuel

What baffles me is that, in all this , still no body is suggesting to incentivise sale of Electric and Hybrid Vehicles in Delhi and no ones says anything about the oil mix in the two wheelers thats killing the environment.

SC and NGT should give clear directions to Govt to formulate policy so that consumers and manufactures dont make wrong decision again

SC had changed the face of Delhi in the 90,'s with the Introduction of CNG as the only fuel for commercial transport

Can they make Delhi's personal commute Electric and Hybrid.

Its a case of attacking the low lying fruit without having to get yourself dirty in the actual cleaning process

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I think NGT is going a bit too far too quickly.

Yes, pollution in NCR is at it's worse but you just can't change laws overnight without thinking of full impact.

I see this as more of a fight between Delhi govt and Center (NGT), both trying to prove they have best measures to curb pollution.

To me, the odd-eve rule was still acceptable but banning diesel vehicle sales all together is just...pure nonsense (this is when NGT has already banned re-registration of 10 yr old diesel vehicles).

Many studies have already revealed that major factors contributing to pollution, at least in NCR are:

- Fuel adulteration

- Commercial vehicles (trucks, LCV etc)

- Construction activity (major contributor to particulate matter in air)

Still, nothing concrete is being done to address above issues.

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Equating NGT ti Centre , does not seem right

Had it been the case , this would have never come down ti this , considering the suit boot ki sarkar.

Centre on the other hand will try and stop this by all means , at the very onset Delhi Police Comissioner has already expressed his displeasure to the ODD EVEN FORMULA, and said that the Delhi State Govt should not blame them for failure to implement this formula, if at all its given a green signal by the courts

When banning the 10 year diesel and 15 year old diesel vehicles was proposed last year, Delhi Police , which works directly the Centre Govt refused to impound vehicles saying , they dont have space to keep impounded vehicles in Delhi and that if they enact this order half of Delhi would turn into a junk yard because of yheir sheer number .

This vehicles are still on the road today , and are even plying without re registration as their reregistratiin was refused.

Centre Govt had announced a compensatiin for these aging vehicles ranging from 30 K to 2.5L , plus additional discounts when people availing this scheme actually go in for a new vehicle purchase , this was another 70 K or so, this scheme never took off , it was announced in a hurry and it also died a sudden death , Nitin Gadkari was the man responsible for this mess.

You must have heard about the e rikshaws , they never could be propely registered as they has safety issues and people whi had invested in those are fighting even now to make the installments, Gadkari again did nothing.

Bajajs Qute fate is know to all.

Bad Govt policy , is the flavour of the season.

PERSONALLY , I certainly like the idea of only electric car , hybrid cars registration for Delhi from now on , i am even intolerent to Petrol now.

Lets face it , majority of the time you are alone in the vehicle , so why not buy a maller vehicle instead.Or if you want to show off why now show off in a slightly Environment friendly vehicle.

I mean if some can buy a 30L -40L SUV , why not buy a Prius , Camry Hybrid instead

Like wise for the smaller budgets its the Reva

Host of Cng variants in your popular models are already available.

I am not againt Metro , Bus , car pool , taxis but having a personal set of green wheels is top on my mind as no matter how great we think of ourselves , lasg mile connectivity has and always will remain an issue in India due to zero planning

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In India 75% of the electricity is produced from Coal fired Thermal power plant, now if one is using a electric car then it's not exactly eco friendly. CNG, petrol and LPG are clean fuels. Diesel vehicles aren't maintained properly that is why one finds tempo., buses, trucks and single cylinder rickshaws contributing to air pollution.

SUV can't be compared with Prius or Camry or Suzuki SHVS CIAZ!

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Surely Electric vehicles are as clean as the JUICE ,as some say, to make that ELECTRICITY ,transmission losses over and above electricity generation are a major hurdle heren, still they are a better alternative to the Diesel vehicles any day.

You atleast cant breath that power generation fumes in your daily commute , no doubt it polluting some area for sure.but its impact is somewhat limited,rather being right in the city centre of the most populus city area of the country.

And Delhis main fight is diesel.

Surely , these lesser mortals two wheelers (specificly for Delhi) are a major contributant to the pollution and courts have plans to leave them off the hook.

Surely, electric cars have problems of their own but those are ones that can be lived with

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All the above points intact

Supreme Court goes a step further.

Extends ban to NCR also till 31 March 2015

So no diesel vehicles over 2000 cc to be registered anywhere in the NCR .

No entry of Diesel Trucks into Delhi registered before 2005

No entry of Diesel Trucks into Delhi not meant for Delhi

Convert Diesel cabs running in Delhi to CNG at the earliest.

Noted All points related to Vehicles Only

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Wow !!

Now where do car manufacturers go from here, specially luxury brands and others like Tata, Mahindra, Toyota etc.

Now this ruling might have far reaching consequences specially if gets applied to others Indian cities as well over time.

Feel bad for manufacturers as Govt just seems to be unclear what their future moves will be.

If blanket ban is the solution to the problem then why have Euro IV ...VI etc norms? European market is predominantly diesel, but they don't put blanket ban on sales because that's not the cause/solution.

I foresee a definite impact on upcoming Auto Expo, many manufacturers might just give it a pass.

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Sorry can't edit my earlier post, so adding new one.

"Not cars, its dust that pollutes Delhi most: Ministry of environment and forest"

"While dust contributes 52% of particulate matter in the air, pollutions from vehicles, including trucks and light commercial vehicles, accounts for just 6.6%"

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Not-cars-its-dust-that-pollutes-Delhi-most-Ministry-of-environment-and-forest/articleshow/45802530.cms?from=mdr

When Supreme court took this decision, did they had fact/figures to support how much pollution will come down in 3 months time to measure decision's effectiveness.

I am not against such laws, but it seems decisions are being taken in haste.

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If you go through the SC order you will see each and every issue has been addressed in it.

Diesel vehicles may be a soft target but atleast its a small deterrent to many for the future.

Its way better than a complete ban of diesel vehicles sales (big and small) being sort by Harish Salve.

RIGHT TO LIFE as laid down by the CONSTITUTION , OVERRIDES every commercial interest .

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The point is, there is nothing wrong in doing something constructive and environment friendly, but it should be done with larger picture in mind and not in haste.

Commercial interest might be overridden but there is a way of doing it.

You don't change policies overnight.

If banning (partial/full) diesel vehicles is the way to go then Govt should have involved all stake holders, given them some lead time to comply and then should have gone ahead with implementation.

What about emission norms, are they just for dummy purpose.

Why were they forcing manufacturers to abide to Bharat Stage IV and be Bharat Stage VI ready in coming years.

There are many such unanswered questions.

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The automobile lobby is so strong here that no pollution norm stands a chance, Euro VI is said to be here by 2019 , they are pushing the dates to 2017,

The so called clean diesel fuel is not so clean , we need oil refiniries to start moving to Euro VI diesel fuel.

The election funds that these vehicle manufacturers tender to these political parties is enough for these politicians to sit on their bums doing nothing.

Left alone to the Govts these norms could never have been enforced.

CNG implementation was stalled by Shiela Dixit , the Delhi CMs for years before the Courts came heavily down on her , the shameless CM then took credit for the same implementation for many elections.

The suit boot ki sarkar , is not said for no reason, Phekus assosiation with the corporates is no brainer. The Adani who mines were under litigation, walked scott free after Phekus Australia visit.

The truck manufacturers , described as the major pollutants , in this class of pollutants , are still to comply with Euro IV norms, no wonder when the Govt is hand in glove with these manufacturers why do they need to push their technology.Let alone technology they dont even have a roadmap for confirming to these standards.

The shitty Govt as usual is incapable to take Executive decsions .

The SC and the Courts are our only hope.

So respect what good SC does for us .

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Dust is a major issue and when combines with smoke it becomes worse. What the government should do is to improve drainage system, as even after rains , debris still stays on the roads. I feel this us in all major NI cities. Adulteration of the fuel also a major problem. Without doing a proper job, why the Govt. is imposing burden on common man. Hybrid vehicles helps in noise pollution rather than air pollution, as during the manufacturing, recycling, charging, disposing etc, a huge amount if air pollution it will make, Globally. We all know how a green card is made.

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No doubt drainage needs to be improved

For dust SC has ordered

Paving of roads

- in most places in Delhi , between the actual roads and the sidewalk or at time just lining the paved roads , there is a considerable amount of unpaved area , where loose sand gathers in plenty , this then get air borne when a fast moving vehicle passes by , that area needs to be paved now as per the SC

Cleaning of roads by vacuum cleaners and not by brooming

- you must have seen how these Municipal Corporation guys manned with long handled brooms sweep the roads in the early hours , while you go for your morning walk/runs

- these guys make the already settled dust particles air borne and you breath the same while you exercise and walk

- Courts have asked them earlier to sweep roads at night

- Courts have now asked sate govt to purchase more vacuum machines and employ them for cleaning the roads

- Delhi will have close to 100% roads being cleaned by mechanised vacuum cleaning machines by early April , orders have been placed already for more machines , currently Delhi has around 8 such machines

Open burning of garbage and leaves has been banned completely

- hard to achieve as winters have set in and people mostly burn these as fuel to keep warm , i myself do a lot of bar-be-cueing during Delhi winters.

Surely, enough a green car made in India will not be 100% green but atleast its a step in the right direction , a sure ZEV policy , Zero emission Vehicle policy needs to be promoted

We may have started slow but now its a time to leapfrog a few ages rather than going the described path.

Diesel ban

Sri Lanka , China Denmark , Brazil , Paris

Petrol and Diesel ban

Germany,UK,Norway Netherland, One state of Canada , Eight states of USA are planning to go this way.

Govt serioisly needs to address the

- Electric car issue , atleast laws like odd even should not apply to them , a no brainer , more subsidy on their purchase , otherwise no one wil switch

- compensation for commercial vehicles who will be switching from polluting vehicles

- compensation for personal vehicles who will be switching from polluting vehicles

- A long lasting policy document , not one that keeps on changing puting industry and people at risk

As strange as it may seem, the Europeans are moving out of Diesel , i mean the inventors of Diesel technology , for a cleaner future

And we are crying foul.

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It looks like SC have overwritten the NGT ban

The ban starts from 1 Jan , so does it mean we still have brief window for registering these bigger SUVs coz I am still finding people running around with unregistered SUVs across delhi with TEMP Registrations

Anyone knows whats going on

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Ban was immediate till 31-Mar-2016 in Delhi-NCR region for diesel engines >= 2000 cc

Not sure, but I think dealers are known to make way out of such situations by employing different tactics..

Only M&M has come up till now to provide support to Delhi-NCR dealers in moving away their current stock to other regions to minimize their financial impact. Don't know what dealers of other manufacturers are upto.

Anyway as I foresee this diesel ban would definitely not last long enough (read commercial interest).

They might just impose some extra pollution tax (as it's currently being sought for diesel engines < 2000 cc). Hearing coming up for that on 5-Jan.

Also, M&M has said they are carrying out study of petrol engines acceptability in their SUV/UVs.

But as we all know, in India SUV/UVs = Diesel.

No way anyone is going to buy a petrol guzzling SUV/UV until a radical change happens (which is not an overnight task).

Edited by sachins

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People did buy HONDA CRVs , so its not that people will not buy Petrol powered SUVs

They will certainly have to if there is no Diesel option around , all the CRVs and Accords failed coz of lack of a Diesel engine , so when there is no diesel option to go to , people will flank inline to get hold of a Petrol powered SUV /MUV/UV

Today, I myself checked the Petrol Terrano , it just has one variant so no difficulty choosing which option you can buy.

There is a 1.0L discount that was offered to me , only one Black Colour was on offer.

Lists for 9.9L , after all taxes and charges comes around 11.34 L , was offered to me at 10.34 L , if i had persisted to buy it they could have sold it to me at EX Showroom price also , sadly Black requires a lot of maintenence , so had to pass.

Coming to Mahindra:

Mahindra already exports the 2.2L petrol engine powered Scorpio to some markets so it should not be that difficult to achieve , it just a matter of time ,to meet the number of engines required .

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Take a look at CRV sales figures or for that matter any Petrol SUV/MUV, preference for diesel is just unrivalled.

If I am in the market for a diesel SUV/MUV > 2000cc and I am forced to look elsewhere then instead of going for a petrol version, I will surely settle of a smaller diesel SUV/MUV (Duster/Creta/Ertiga etc) and save some cash as well.

Also, was just browsing pre-owned cars for sale on Olx, seems this diesel ban has positively impacted their prices. Atleast 10-20% increase in prices can be seen.

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All these SUVs were being registered in Meerut up until 20 Dec 15 , even after the NGT and SC order.

Its only from monday that it has been stopped.

Also , another news , Delhi Govt has 600 out of the 6000 required for the ODD EVEN formula . So we are heading into an ODD NEW YEAR for sure and Delhites will find a way to EVEN IT OUT , DELHI STYLE.

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All these SUVs were being registered in Meerut up until 20 Dec 15 , even after the NGT and SC order.

Its only from monday that it has been stopped.

One of my friend's relative got his Fortuner booking transferred to Dehradun (Uttarakhand).

Got his vehicle registered their and now driving in Delhi.

We know Delhi cops usually don't hackle vehicles of neighbouring states (UK, UP, PB, HR).

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This is exactly what i meant by EVEN IT OUT , DELHI STYLE

we are sure to find out other instances like these , LAW needs to catch up fast or like most Govt policies it will end up doing a little good and lot of harm, corruption for one, will rise through the roof.

yes right , traffic police always are reluctant to issue challan to these vehicles as the amount of paper work involved and state hopping involved takes a toll on their luxurious sedentary lifestyle.

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