sgiitk

Hybrid Cars!

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Do we have a market for hybrids in India?

Please take the following into account  before responding

1. Cost : Typically 30% higher than normal cars.

2. Service facilities: Can our workshops cope with hybrids?

3. Service Life: I expect that the batteries may have to be changed in 4-5 years. We try and keep our cars forever.

Of course the mileage will be great.

+++++++++++++++++

A question for the auto gurus:

By all accounts turbines offer a far better power to weight (typically 3x) than the IC engine.  Throttle lag is not an issue in hybrids. So why has no manufacturer offered a  turbine in their hybrid.

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I believe as yet there is no market for the hybrid. Firstly because they are expensive and they will save on mileage and emissions only in the city and not the highway. Secondly the power is lost, it accelerates slow at pick up.

I would buy if i lived in a village where everyone else had a hybrid.

The car does not make any sound, i have heard it. There is no sense of sport to it.

 

What i am really looking forward to is the trybid cars. Trybid car is essentially a hybrid that can run on sugar-based ethanol. Ethanol can be extracted from grass and corn and rubbish ie they can actualy grow it again and again. Even the less efficient corn based ethanol produces 50% less carbon emmision. And there is enough enough ethanol in this world that car power entire Europe and America.

 

I reckon that could be the answer to solve global warming.

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Unless there are volumes, there wont be real hybrids in this country. The high price is the main deterrent. The Indian market still needs to develop further for hybrids to be successful.

 

Turbine engines? - Costs are a limiting factor.

 

FRG

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The high price is the main deterrent. The Indian market still needs to develop further for hybrids to be successful.

 

Turbine engines? - Costs are a limiting factor.

 

FRG

Agree fully on the first count.

I doubt that given the volumes,  turbines will be that much costlier. Power to Weight is obviously an issue, that is why one of the popular hybrids is using  the Atkinson Cycle, which gives 4-strokes per revolution, and hence aa better p/w ratio. If not a turbine, why not a a Wankel (At constant rpm it should be possible to come up with a really efficient one) - smaller, lighter, vibration free, etc.

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Hybrid car wont hav a market in india for atleast a decade coz indians dont care abt the environment , i agree some hav started to think of it but it  is neglible. If they start respecting the tires then may be they would care.

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Hey friens there is a good news...........now India will also have a fleet of hybrid cars in 2008.........according to the main article of a auto magazine of october month Honda is going to launch Hybrid Civic in mid 2008 .............well mahindra also has plans for the launch of hybrid scorpio in 2008.........

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Yeah, this news has been doing the rounds now.. The hybrid Civic will be a import costing about 20 lakhs, right in Accords territory. Itll be interesting to see the publics reaction to the first modern hybrid on Indian territory. But whats got me hooked is the hybrid Scorpio. Mahindra must really be congratulated for this venture, regardless of how the product turns out.

Just a few years after they jumped into the passenger car business, theyre already off building a hybrid. This is awesome stuff!

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It will take more time for the hybrid Civic to arrive around 08 end and time taken on testing and reviews it will take more time for people to get a taste of it around feb 09.

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What is a Hybrid car?? is Toyota Prius a Hybrid car ??

what are the Advantages and disadvantages of a Hybrid car and will it be launched in India and if soo  which one will be launched first and what maybe the Price?

Who are the Major manufacturers of Hybrid cars?

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Hybrid techonology is brilliant as it combines best of both worlds.  It increases fuel efficiency to a great extent as the electric motor is used for starting, in low speeds and while idling.  The petrol/diesel motor is used when more power is needed.  All this is done in a smooth manner and it is unnoticeable to driver.  The cars are slightly on the expensive side, obviously due to having an extra motor and all the complex electronics, but they are very economical on the long run and would save our planet too. 

Jitz

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Toyota Prius and Honda Civic hybrid r bestsellers...

but a modern diesel car gives more mileage than Prius...

eg:VW polo...Luxury hybrid cars also thr...Lexus LX 600, RX 400

economy of V6...but gives V8 performance

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There are three threads in Indian Cars which should be merged.. It may prevent a lot of repetition  - Hybrid Cars!  (this thread), 

New Hybrid Civic!!!, & Hybrid Cars.

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the hybrid cars require a whole lot of investment for both the company and the customers. the ethanol based fuel aint available anywhere and the CNG pumps are not here in hyd. with the prices shooting up, the only thing we can do is wait and hope

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I am reviving this thread on the idea from FRG and also now that Hybrids are no longer as far as Mars. Firstly, there are two categories -

1. Normal- here you have an alternate power source to charge the battery. This comes on when the battery is getting low, and also when you need more power than from the battery alone. Fuel economy comes from the engine running at its ideal speed only and that it can be smaller.

2. Plug Hybrid: Here you also have the possibility fo charging the car from the mains power. This for small distances between charges the engine never comes on. More economical that No.1.

I a subsequent post I will discuss various options regarding the power source.

I am also reviving the Hydrogen thread!

sgiitk2008-01-12 17:30:40

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well tata is going hybrid too

Indica hybrid for india:

While Honda is serious about the launch of its civic hybrid in india and Toyota plans to bring the prius hybrid to India. Homegrown Tata Motors confirmed that it would launch a hybrid indica in india in 2008. Tata Motors will launch a

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I fully agree that the duty content on hybrids should be reduced dramatically. Why not Zero, since the basic cost itself will ensure that these will not run all other cars out of the market. At present Hybrids are not cost effective globally. So you need

subsidies to keep them going. Of course there will be a group who will

buy them as a lifestyle statement.

----------------

Continuing from the previous post. Looking at power sources the basics are

Today almost all hybrids use Electric + whatever. Earlier, flywheels are also tried.  Regenerative braking is part of the design of almost all Hybrids.

Motive power:

1. IC Engine. Can be run much more efficiently when it works at a single speed. Atkinson Cycle (a modification of the Otto cycle) which gives four strokes per crankshaft revolution is quite popular. It allows for a smaller alternator and hence lower mass. The engine can be small since it has electric assist when higher power levels are required (how many of us run ful throttle for even 30% of the time!)..

2. Gas Turbines: Chrysler(?) had tried them in cars in the 60's, but the turbo-lag killed them.Not seen anywhere yet. Small very efficient gas turbines have been developed. These are far more efficient and lighter than IC engines.  Expect to see them in hybrids in the not too distant future. 

3. Fuel Cells: Early days yet. Far more efficient that IC engines or even gas turbines. At present reliable ones (as in space applications) are all hydrogen based. Once (I guess it is when rather than if) efficient alcohol based (higher energy density, multiple sources, easy to transport, etc.) fuel cells are developed they may be the future.

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Now Alcohol Fuel Cells are here.

I have long argued that the future of Hydrogen Power is in Alcohol fuel cells.

Sorry for the long post but this looks very interesting. Picked this one up from Physics World. (This atrticle is not on general view hence not just a URL)

As fuel-cell buses take to the

streets in Iceland, the idea of an economy based on hydrogen rather than fossil

fuels is being taken more seriously, as Tim Chapman discovers.

Iceland might seem an unlikely

place to lead a technological revolution that could radically change the

structure of the global economy. But as the country takes its initial steps

towards becoming the world's first hydrogen society, Iceland is aiming to prove

that the 21st century can be powered without the environmental and political

pitfalls of fossil fuels.

With no fossil-fuel reserves,

Iceland has long exploited its other geological assets to develop alternative

energy sources. It meets virtually all its electricity and heating requirements

from hydroelectric power and geothermal water reserves. But the sparsely

populated nation of 280 000 still relies on $150m worth of imported fossil

fuels every year for transport, including meeting the demands of the country's

fishing fleet, which provides 70% of the national income.

The Icelandic government is

now backing an ambitious programme to remove all fossil-fuel requirements from

Icelandic society within a generation. The key is to use hydrogen or

hydrogen-rich compounds in vehicles powered by fuel cells. The first hydrogen

buses will hit the streets of Reykjavik early next year, filling up with

hydrogen-rich methanol at a new filling station built by Shell, one of the

major corporate backers of the project along with Norsk Hydro and

DaimlerChrysler.

Over the next few years, the

capital's entire fleet of 80 buses will be replaced with vehicles powered by

polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) fuel cells, accompanied by the introduction

of PEM fuel-cell cars for private transportation (see Fuel cells eye up the

mainstream market, pages 30-31 print version only). A demonstration project for

a fuel-cell-powered ocean vessel is planned for 2006, with the intention of

replacing the entire national fishing fleet beginning in 2015.

Bragi Arnason, a chemist at

the University of Iceland and an advocate of hydrogen power since the 1970s,

says the transition to a hydrogen economy could be complete by 2030-2040.

Production and storage

The production of hydrogen is

well established in Iceland for use in fertilizers. Each year 2000 tonnes of

the gas is generated by electrolysing water. But this capacity would have to be

increased by almost a factor of 30 to produce enough hydrogen to meet the

expected demand.

Electrolysis is an

energy-intensive process. According to Arnason, hydrogen produced this way is

up to three times as expensive by energy content as imported petrol.

Conveniently, PEM fuel cells are up to three times as efficient as

internal-combustion engines, so hydrogen fuel is competitively priced. And if

hydroelectric electricity is used for production, greenhouse-gas emissions are

minimized.

Many pundits in the car

industry judge methanol to the best medium for storing hydrogen because it has

a relatively high proportion of hydrogen by mass. Moreover, methanol is easier

to handle than methane because it is a liquid. Pure molecular hydrogen would be

the most energy-efficient fuel, but is extremely awkward to store in a car in its

gaseous state.

Another problem with hydrogen

is that liquefying and compressing it requires 20-40% of the energy it

produces, and pressurized storage tanks weigh many times more than their

contents. Metal hydrides can store hydrogen at close to atmospheric pressure,

but are too heavy for many uses.

American power

The hydrogen economy involves

more than fuel for transport. Iceland is fortunate that it can meet its

national demand for electricity with fully renewable sources, but most

countries are dependent on fossil fuels to produce electricity for homes and

businesses.

Spurred largely by the desire

to reduce its dependence on oil imports from politically sensitive parts of the

world, the world's biggest and most energy-hungry economy has also embarked on

an ambitious programme to convert to hydrogen.

Late November the US

Department of Energy (DOE) published a report that set out a wide-reaching

vision of hydrogen as the nation's premier energy carrier. The DOE aims to

realize the "meaningful introduction" of fuel cells for energy

generation by 2005, replacing 12 trillion kilowatt-hours of conventional energy

with hydrogen by 2010. Each year the US consumes 2500 times as much energy, but

the plans do not stop there. By 2030 the DOE intends to replace at least

one-tenth of its current annual energy consumption with hydrogen power.

A major part of the DOE

proposals is the use of hydrogen fuel cells in distributed generation and the

move away from massive centralized power stations to much more localized generation.

Many offices and industrial buildings around the world already generate on-site

heat and power from fuel cells that use hydrogen-rich fuel derived from natural

gas. The cost of on-site fuel cells is now approaching parity with buying

energy from existing power plants, but prices should fall dramatically once

there is sufficient demand to exploit manufacturing economies of scale.

Promoting adoption

The first stages of the

transition to a hydrogen economy are something of a catch-22 situation, with

consumer demand unlikely to rise until the infrastructure is in place and vice

versa. The DOE proposes that national and state government services should be

early adopters of hydrogen technology to help stimulate the market.

Some advocates of the hydrogen

economy believe that market forces will be enough to drive the transition.

Research by the Rocky Mountain Institute, the environmental think-tank in

Colorado founded by experimental physicist Amory Lovins, shows that the

transition can be profitable at every step. To kick-start the process, Lovins

proposes leasing fuel-cell cars to people who work in and around the buildings

where fuel cells have been installed. The cars can fill up with hydrogen while

parked during the day, and can also use their fuel cells to generate

electricity to sell back to the grid. Eventually, most homes will have a fuel

cell in the cellar, Lovins believes.

Hydrogen can also help solve

one of the obstacles to the wider adoption of renewable energy sources. If such

systems can only provide power when the wind is blowing or the Sun is shining,

they will play only a small part in meeting national energy needs. But if that

power is used in electrolysis, hydrogen acts as an effective storage medium for

renewable energy.

Those first small steps for

Iceland could eventually prove to be one giant leap for the rest of the world.

About the author

Tim Chapman is a science

writer based in Halifax, UK

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