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BMW and SUV owners are criminals--Jayram Ramesh

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13 Nov, 2010, 07.27AM IST,ET Bureau

Jairam's red light may send SUVs off track

NEW DELHI: Environment

minister Jairam Ramesh on Friday came down heavily on

the use of sports utility vehicles (SUVs) and other big luxury cars that

typically run on diesel and have sub-optimal fuel

efficiency, saying it is criminal to drive these cars in a country like

India. In the process, he stoked a debate on subsidy on diesel

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While he blames diesel , he ought to thank it for reducing pollution , western countries are now turning towards Diesel power for clean and efficient engines.

 

While i agree LPG are cleaner but they are not even efficient compared to petrol. Consumption will be more and we are back to square 1.

 

As for his comments , i do see him as one who always complains , he doesn't provide a solution , but always pin points the problem. If he was so concern , we would have seen hybrids flying off the showroms by now.

 

Last question , does he mean to say we should promote petrol SUV's ?? Is he hinting at a cheaper BMW X5m or Mercedes G55 amg/Brabus that go half a mile to a gallon ?

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I think its quiet possible that the ambassadors and fiats the ministers roam around in are much more polluting than SUVs. I really don't think we can expect SUVs to be completely banned but we are probably headed towards the very same solution we always see. More taxes. asethi9192010-11-13 12:16:37

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The Auto Industry representatives have retorted by saying that the Minister should be aware of the new generation diesel technology which is less polluting.

The Hon"ble Minister should first do his homework and come out with figures for his clan of people's representatives who patronise the SUV market.

Of the thousands of people's representatives (elected and holding

public positions) at the Panchayat, Municipality, Union Territory,State and Central levels, most

of them are obsessed with the ownership of diesel motor vehicles be it

a UV, MUV,SUV luxury car or anything else.Its a different fact that

coming to the ownership papers, they own none of these in their own

names, in a majority of cases.

They win elections using diesel powered motor vehicles through which they run their election campaigns.

Is all that criminal?

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If he is so concerned about our carbon footprint, why doesn't our dear minister crack down upon the 1000s of old trucks, buses, lorries, sumos and ambassadors that pollute like hell? I've seen govt. trucks, buses, ambys, sumos etc. bellowing black smoke like factories on wheels. SUVs and BMWs are far more non-polluting compared to these contraptions. Heck, BMWs and SUVs are definitely not among the rung of highest polluting production vehicles.

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The minister is suffering from an acute case of "Foot-in-the mouth" disease. I think he's plain jealous of those who own Merc's and Beemer's. Best would be for some one who wants 'urgent clearance' from his ministry give him a Audi Q7 4.2 TDI as 'bakshish', then he may not mind that much.

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I think we all are missing the real issue here.

 

The real issue is "use of subsidied diesel in a private use pessenger vehicle". be it a car (Indica, swift, ...), SUV (Scorpio, Safari, .....), MUV ( Innova, Tata Adventure,.....) and so on including the ones mentioned by the minister.

 

And, it is only the government which  has to fame  proper policy, so that the diesel subsidy goes for the intended porpose and not to the private car owners.

 

I feel that the Minister also intended the same, although, his choice of words may not be right.

 

Even the Mashelkar report on petrol, deisel price deregulation spoke about imposing  certain duties on deisel cars, if subsidy on diesel can not be removed.

 

But, may be due to lobbying by manufectures, govt. did not implemented that.

 

 

 

 

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If we ever see a condition where only commercial vehicles get subsidised diesel, and private vehicles have to pay more, we can surely expect a new black market to develop. It will allow for selling diesel aquired at the commercial vehicle price and being sold below the private vehicle price. Things like these are common in India and this will happen too.

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Yes, This is quite likely to happen, if differential pricing is indroduced. 

 

Because of this only, Mashelkar committee recommended to impose a fixed amount (say 80,000/- rupees) on ex-factory prices of diesel cars.

 

There can be a still simpler approach to this.

 

Just like excise duty, a diesel subsidy duty/cess (say 15 to 25 %) can be levied on ex-factory prices. The amount so collected, can be used to replenish the subsidy account.

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I agree with Jairam Ramesh on this issue.The diesel which is supplied in India still does not meet  the world standard( inspite of claims by oil company) resulting in poor emission level.Only 11 cties inindia have swtched to BS4 other cities are still BS3 compliant

Also why should people have to travel in SUV to go to shopping market?I always see Only single person apart from driver in these SUV.

Morever as cities are getting crowded these SUV/Mercedes/BMWs occupy the parking space meant for two - three cars

These vehicles are just a status symbol nothing else.

 

BTW, I have seen only traders, politicians and industralists in these swanky cars/SUV wasting tax payer's hard earned money.it sould stop for good.

 

IMO ,If people want to own these swanky cars/SUV then should pay a luxury tax and only petrol vehicles should be allowed or hybrids- no diesel

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What if you have a joint family? What if you like tripping? What if your locality is hilly?

Please do not say that SUVs are bad and they are just status symbols!!

And diesel SUVs are pretty efficient these days. Some city runs turns out to be cheaper than petrol cars.

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Yes' date=' This is quite likely to happen, if differential pricing is indroduced. 

 

Because of this only, Mashelkar committee recommended to impose a fixed amount (say 80,000/- rupees) on ex-factory prices of diesel cars.

 

There can be a still simpler approach to this.

 

Just like excise duty, a diesel subsidy duty/cess (say 15 to 25 %) can be levied on ex-factory prices. The amount so collected, can be used to replenish the subsidy account.
[/quote']

He doesn't have a say in this , He doesn't look after Finance ministry does he ??

 

@Mr.Spook

This comes with 9-10% growth the country offers , rise in middle class will eventually lead to this , SUV's are just the first stop , next well come fuel guzzling coupes and sedans.

 

SUV's just can't be thrown away because some one doesn't like its usage ?

 

Choice is ours , An Nissan X-trail diesel that give 10 kmpl or Honda CRV that gives 5/6 kmpl.(B2B traffic)
sarabjeet2010-11-15 05:40:31

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@alto - I am sorry to say I am entitled to express my views which I have done in a restrained manner.

Does everybody go daily with Joint family in SUV? the answer is no- it is for those weekend trips and that to out station or long distance its fine.A SUV in hilly region is risky due to high center of gravity.

If they really want an SUV why they are not going for petrol engined version?

whether you like it or not SUV?BMW/Mercedes is a status symbol and often bully other drivers in the road.

I am not talking about efficiency alone I am talking about people driving these large vehicles in heart of city with single passenger apart from driver- what sense does it make.

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@If they really want an SUV why they are not going for petrol engined version?
whether you like it or not SUV?BMW/Mercedes is a status symbol and often bully other drivers in the road.

 

An BMW X5 Diesel gives 8 kmpl so does a Tata Safari , but a BMW X5 petrol gives 3/4 kmpl  also Tata Safari petrol version did the same.

 

The main purpose of SUV's are to tame roads where no other vehical can go , hilly regions is particular because of the land slide and with a driver with gutts u can go over them.

 

Be it Suv's, Hatches , Sedans or now Audi R10 TDI (sports car) diesel are more efficient and cleaner

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he main purpose of SUV's are to tame roads where no other vehical can go

' date=' hilly regions is particular because of the land slide and with a

driver with gutts u can go over them.

[/quote']

I agree on this issue. But I am taking about those people who use the SUV for commuting from to Office within cityand when only one passenger is seen sitting in these large vehicles.

Regarding Diesel engine - its more harmful due to its particulate emission not petrol engine.Whether one likes it or not this debate would have not occurred if Diesel and petrol prices were same.

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... turns out to be cheaper than petrol cars.

 

This is precisely what the Minister does not want.  He wants the users of these SUV/MUV/Luxury vehicles to pay more for using Diesel for private/personal trasport. 

 

Diesel was originally meant for commercial transport use (like trains, buses, lorries, taxi segment etc.,), government use, military use and for agriculture segment use.  The Governmment is subsidising Diesel so that it is affordable to these priority sectors. 

 

I see nothing wrong in what he said.  But, I would be waiting to see what he is going to do as very rarely, politicians with ideals can do something and do meaningful things.  

 

Dual pricing will be a failure in India, as for each and every governmental procedure/check, there shall be thousands of loopholes in planning, implementation, execution and followup.  Very rarely, any meaningful checking or control is possible. 

 

You only need to see PDS for how things will certainly go wrong.   

Inspite of so many rules, regulations and control measures, subsidised LPG gas is rampantly misued in vehicles, commercial hotels, eateries etc., 

 

I feel that the Minister must focus on controlling LPG (which is also highly subsidised) which is more misued and mis-directed. 

 

 

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I agree with you ramesh. The main focus of our government especially  Delhi Govt. nowadays is how to mint more money from common man-Read BRT buses(crowded , dirty unpunctual bus service) metro rail( with one coach out of four coach reserved for ladies,frequent delays , no service from 11pm to 6am) and more taxes on vehicles.

Mr. Spock2010-11-15 06:18:19

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@sarabjeet : He doesn't have a say in this , He doesn't look after Finance ministry does he ??

 

           It is right that Mr. Jairam does not look after finance ministry, but government is forced to take action on important issues only when conflicting voices ( support for the issue) start rising from within the govt.

And use of subsidised diesel is not OK in private vehicles even if diesel becomes more cleaner than petrol.

There has to be some normalizing factor in terms of some additional duties on Diesel vehicles to compensate for the subsidy.

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I agree on this issue. But I am taking about those people who use the SUV for commuting from to Office within cityand when only one passenger is seen sitting in these large vehicles.

Yes but what can one do ? If he doesn't buy an SUV ' date=' he'll buy a luxuy sedan which be as economical as an SUV as the main criteria would be space.

 



Regarding Diesel engine - its more harmful due to its particulate emission not petrol engine.Whether one likes it or not this debate would have not occurred if Diesel and petrol prices were same.

 

Wrong , these are none-crdi engines which are being phased out. Crdi are much more efficient and cleaner than petrol engines as they travel twice the distance petrol cars do using the same amount of fuel.

 

its CO2,CO(petrol) vs NOx(Diesel)

 

Europeans have the strickest environmental norms , and they are encouraging more and more efficient diesel engines. Diesel is relitavely newer technology for car engines it has to go a long way

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@sarabjeet : He doesn't have a say in this ' date=' He doesn't look after Finance ministry does he ??

 

           It is right that Mr. Jairam does not look after finance ministry, but government is forced to take action on important issues only when conflicting voices ( support for the issue) start rising from within the govt.

And use of subsidised diesel is not OK in private vehicles even if diesel becomes more cleaner than petrol.

There has to be some normalizing factor in terms of some additional duties on Diesel vehicles to compensate for the subsidy.

[/quote']

 

Well he should either speak about SUV's or diesel subsidy .

Now here comes the important issue , that is taxes , govt should firstly get their act togther , now they can't even enforce GST . They have to look into the issues of different fuel prices all over India , why should Delhi and Chandighar enjoy cheap fuel prices and we should pay tax for them .

 

Sorry i may sound like creating a divide but it surely doesn't go down well with me , make fuel prices equal through out the country then we can talk.

 

Mumbai fuel prices are around 60 RS/L.
sarabjeet2010-11-15 06:39:06

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Let me confess- I only love petrol cars that to affordable cars not ultra luxurious and  SUV , so whatever I write  will slightly biased towards car. Ditto with other members they are either fixated to Desel/SUV/Luxurious vehicles or towards other vehicles due to which I feel the discussion is going nowhere.

@sarbjeet - I was talking about particulate matter not CO or Co2.BTW petrol emits Nox not diesel vehicles.

Does the person really have to travel in a luxury vehicle can't he take a mundane vehicle for office or use his vehicle as a car pool  vehicle? IT depends on the character of the person , mostly we Like to show off thats what I felt which is not bad but if he uses tax payer's subsidiary to travel in luxury vehicle or is responsible for stock market crash I will protest!

Regarding fuel prices do you know that petrol prices in Harayana and Uttar Pradesh is much lower when compared to Delhi and even rest of India.

The fuel prices in Mumbai are high due to states taxes - So ask your Chief minister to lower taxes when you go to vote next time.The fuel prices in India consist of extra added bonanza like  state taxes, excise duty, educational cess, vat.

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What is the single class which uses SUVs the most - politico's, who are also by and large criminals.

In his list he included BMW, Merc & Honda. The most fuel efficient cars in their categories. Also, Honda does not sell Diesels in India.

He was also ranting about EVs. I just ignore him and Mani Shanker Aiyar. Both want us back to the stone age.

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Let me confess- I only love petrol cars that to affordable cars not ultra luxurious and  SUV ' date=' so whatever I write  will slightly biased towards car. Ditto with other members they are either fixated to Desel/SUV/Luxurious vehicles or towards other vehicles due to which I feel the discussion is going nowhere.
[/quote']

 

I too loved petrol cars when petrol was 38 Rs/L , i do around 60-70 kms in B2B traffic so I am kind allergic to petrol at 60 Rs/L

 

@sarbjeet - I was talking about particulate matter not CO or Co2.BTW petrol emits Nox not diesel vehicles.

 

That is called sooth ' date=' similar to coal , they are harmless solid carbon particles , u don't find them in crdi's and if they do occur they do because of air/fuel mixture preportion gone wrong or clogged filter which can be taken care of.

 

NOx is emiited by diesel my dear friend.

 



Does the person really have to travel in a luxury vehicle can't he take a mundane vehicle for office or use his vehicle as a car pool  vehicle? IT depends on the character of the person , mostly we Like to show off thats what I felt which is not bad but if he uses tax payer's subsidiary to travel in luxury vehicle or is responsible for stock market crash I will protest!


A luxury car does not mean low on FE , Volvos are one of the most environmetal friendly cars in the world. You are mixing performace cars with luxury cars. Agains lets get to the basics , BMW X5 returns 8 kmpl so does an SX4 (driving in metro cities).

 



Regarding fuel prices do you know that petrol prices in Harayana and Uttar Pradesh is much lower when compared to Delhi and even rest of India.
The fuel prices in Mumbai are high due to states taxes - So ask your Chief minister to lower taxes when you go to vote next time.The fuel prices in India consist of extra added bonanza like  state taxes' date=' excise duty, educational cess, vat.
[/quote']

I know, hence I have first asked for prices to be same all India before talking about de-regulation of fuel prices , let every one suffer the same , then we'll see how many people want to withdraw subsidy's and talk about their tax money being missused .

 

Why should a person from Delhi talk about removing subsidy when they already enjoy the benfits of low fuel prices , people in south esp , Banglore and Mumbai get little respite with subsidies Diesel rates. Aren't we paying tax aswell ? Infact we are paying more !

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