sgiitk

Manuals & Spares: A suggestion

Recommended Posts

Some of this was discussed in the very early days of the forum when the membership and participation was far smaller. So at the cost of repetition here I am:

In India most manufacturers (with the exception of Maruti and may be one or two others- based on my pst experience) of cars are not winning to provide workshop manuals to the customer. This results in a monopoly situation leaving the buyer totally at the mercy of the vendor.

Availability of spares for direct purchase by the customer is another question.

These definitely amount to a monopoly. may even be illegal. I think I have a right to get maintain my vehicle myself, or get it done wherever I like, and the documentation should be available for it.

I would like to suggest to ACI to add the following information to the Car Tests:

1. Manuals available : Yes or No

2. Spares sold to customer: Yes or No

This will expose the manufacturers (most probably under pressure from the dealerships), and may force a change in attitudes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its a very good idea, its the law in US to provide FSM to paying customers. Out here the big car names the likes of MB, BMW etc. evade the issue of FSM even when the customer is willing to make a payment. OTOH, almost all manuals are now electronic and can be either bought in CDROM form or downloaded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks.

I was not aware of the excellent US law. In the UK I do not know the legal situation, but you could order one. However, most owners preferred third party manuals like Haynes. These were cheaper, easier to use and avoided special tools as far as possible.

You are absolutely correct the manuals are in e-form and should be no

problem to provide, except that the vendor-dealer duopoly will be

broken. (some fat profits to be lost). Today you do not even get the wiring diagram in the owner's manual!

Another suggestion : publish the power & torque curves as part of the report.

Added: You may recall I had quoted documentary evidence of Hyundai refusing to sell the manuals. I for one am extremely unlikely to buy Hyundai again.

sgiitk2007-12-17 10:29:47

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Power and torque curves if published should be done on dyno basis rather than manufactuer's quote. Would make it interesting to see who comes closest to their rating. Years back C&D did some serious dyno testing and it was found out unlike their Japanese and German counterparts, Ferrari in general was a bit exuberant with their bhp quotes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think dyno measurements of power & torque are in the future. Let them start with the manufacturers graphs. Adding whether the are SAE (bare engine with no accessories) or DIN (with water pump, etc. attached) will avoid a lot of confusion.

smiley2.gifThe joke about Italian Horses being smaller than British (or German) horses was common in the 70's but not much has been seen on this of late.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Torque and bhp curves is a good idea but companies will easily exploit it and may give false quote.

That is where you come insmiley2.gif. One must learn to interpret the data (hoping it is not totally false). Minor variations are mostly of no consequence.

Please note in Turbo engines (almost all diesels today) you will only get bands and not lines, since the boost will have a say in the performance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

REVIVING a thread

I am reviving this old thread since now there is better awareness of the issues involved.

IMHO restricting service information amounts to a Monopolistic and RESTRICTIVE TRADE PRACTICE. Except probably Maruti all others are guilty of this. In the very beginning of the forum I had quoted a letter from a very senior Hyundai official in the matter in some thread as well.

PS: It is Unfair Trade Practices

http://www.autocarindia.com/new/autocar_forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35&KW=Hyundai+manager

I would like to see some of our legal eagles comment on the practice.

sgiitk2008-04-08 10:56:24

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Depends on what you want to do. You do not sell a car as soon as the warranty is over, do you?

Also, techie types like to maintain their own cars. Also, unless service documentation is available you cannot really go to any non-company franchise for service/repairs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no hassles with the techie types maintaining their own car.

What I find funny is that the techie types find it necessary to find fault with the car cos for not providing them documentation to indulge in their hobby. I don't think the car cos are under any obligation (esp. in India) to provide the same.

 

Afterall, after-sales service is a big part of the co's earnings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Afterall' date=' after-sales service is a big part of the co's earnings.
[/quote']

Precisely. I am under no obligation to go to the dealership. Also, I have a right to maintain my car at a location of my own choice. In the days of the good old IAJ I raised this issue and (horror of horrors) I get a letter from HM offering to sell me a WS manual six years after having refused.

Every car buyer has to right to get proper maintenance at a location of his choice. Would you be flogging your car after the warranty is over. Reminds me of the story that the sheik sold his Rolls as the ashtray was full.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In europe the car companies have to provide spares and info to anyone who wants it by law it is only here that companies get away because of the immense difficulty in taking someone to court

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@sgiitk

Till any law legislates it, I think a car company cannot be expected to support the whims of a customer who is not going to provide any monetary support (in terms of visits to a dealership.

Just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@sgiitk

Till any law legislates it' date=' I think a car company cannot be expected to support the whims of a customer who is not going to provide any monetary support (in terms of visits to a dealership.

Just my opinion.
[/quote']

I think the law ia quite clear about banning monopolistic and restrictive trade practices - which is exactly what it is. Trying to curb competition. Only if someone was to sue may be his grandchildren will see the result.

What are all the independent garages for - if it was just the whim of a few customers. I am afraid this number is very big - vox populi, vox dei

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a big difference as far as ind. garages there are some who like to experiment with customers cars to learn sometimes with disastrous results and some others who will spend money and make an effort to get the proper tools, manuals and equipment to give better service, they will obviously charge more than the former but will be way more reliable than the former. You get owners who pay peanuts and end up getting monkeys to repair their cars 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the law ia quite clear about banning monopolistic and restrictive trade practices - which is exactly what it is. Trying to curb competition. Only if someone was to sue may be his grandchildren will see the result.

What are all the independent garages for - if it was just the whim of a few customers. I am afraid this number is very big - vox populi' date=' vox dei
[/quote']

Nothing monopolistic about it. Go ahead and open up your car, or give to to any mechanic you can trust. Only, don't expect the car companies to smile and hold your hand and guide you as you do this!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a big difference as far as ind. garages there are some who like to experiment with customers cars to learn sometimes with disastrous results and some others who will spend money and make an effort to get the proper tools' date=' manuals and equipment to give better service, they will obviously charge more than the former but will be way more reliable than the former. You get owners who pay peanuts and end up getting monkeys to repair their cars 

[/quote']

Problem is that there are a few highly paid monkeys too!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are some trained monkeys also like those of the MYTVS service centers who deal with all types and makes. Some garages offer convenient services in terms of time and other things better than the dealerships. It is so a matter of choice and convenience, which we can get if the companies are ready to lose some of their monetary gains.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing monopolistic about it. Go ahead and open up your car' date=' or give to to any mechanic you can trust. Only, don't expect the car companies to smile and hold your hand and guide you as you do this!!
[/quote']

Obviously, I do not expect any supervisor to be standing next to me when I go to an independent, or do it myself. However, I expect to have the information to be able to do so. If this was indeed the case then why are workshop manuals available worldwide, except in many countries they prefer Haynes to the company manuals! Nowadays, you can even download many of the manuals (Honda for sure) from the web.

If you feel indebted to the manufacturer you are welcome. Many people do like to go to the company garage, but a larger number does not. How many Maruti's are serviced at dealerships or MASSs after warranty is over? Who wants to hang around for half a day for a (dodgy) service when the same can be done at an independent in maximum two hours. I am aware of umpteen cases where the oil filter was not changed, or tyres not rotated (twice with myself) or worse.

I just want the choice WITH DOCUMENTATION which is my right. The vendors are equally greedy everywhere. The user's handbooks today are worse than a joke - they do not even have a circuit diagram.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...