GOLF

Are we too critical of MSIL?

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The new Swift from MSIL has garned lot of crticism even before the product is launched.Questions like why no ABS in Vdi or quality is not that improved just looking at  ( non official ) pictures to no bluetooth controls in car.

This is not the first time, when Estilo and  A- star was launched same section of people criticzed MSIL.Same people kept quite about serious steering problems in i10 and i20 and still recommending these cars when you crticized they always maintained that maruti products have low quality interiors to low boot space( as if your caring trunk load of suitcases daily in your car).

 

VW Polo though good car has lot of niggles which can't be overlooked  but wriggles out of poor publicity simply due VW brand.

The same thing is for mercs - whose quality of air con is poor but no wants to criticise it but in case of 800 or even Nano people and media blasted it for A/C  forgetting Nano and 800 sell for a low price and Mercs are sold for 50 times the price of these cheap cars.Thae same thing is with Etios just because its Toyota it has to be costly  otherwise quality will be okay is really bad for avearge customer because cars would be expensive and VFM is out for a toss

This sort of double standards real hurts a buyer when he wants to make an informed decision.Buying a car today includes a cheap good service, wide dealership  - service network  , excellent customer care service,overall VFM - this in India apart from MSIL no other companies come close not even Hyundai lags in these areas.

 

Some sections really don't like MSIL to be number, if its where Toyota they would be more happy.This is not new thing it happened in USA with GM and Britain with British leyland.

 

Lets face it MSIL cars are basically VFM - which includes a good service response , a decent build quality and features to price which are in tune and better than competition if not more.They will always be small cars as the main market is Japan for Suzuki and its a small car specialist  like other companies.

 

The media and this very same section would be happy to see some other brand of cars to be number one even if its expensive and not VFM.

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@Golf

Everything is good about MSIL cars except they are overpriced compare to their quality levels.They are selling overpriced cars just due to their monopoly in indian market. Because once indian put their faith in somebody he can extract all assets very easily.

HMIL was the first who gave them some challenge which made the market little competitive. Now with a lot of players here, even MSIL fans will also get benefit as competition will make them deliver good product at competitive price.

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Everything is good about MSIL cars except they are overpriced compare to their quality levels.They are selling overpriced cars just due to their monopoly in indian market.

 

If this is true, then what the Hyundai is doing !!

Is Alto is overpriced or i10 w.r.t its competitiors ?

Or its the Dzire vs Etios ??

 

Maruti Suzuki is name always associated with Brand loyality & proper Service backup. Even with their Monopoly insales, their Company, Dealer & Service Centre guys are Well-behaved & commited towards the Customer service.

So is their Overall Ambience at that places.

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@ashikawa - who says MSIL products are costly,there is a car for very budget.Also these days there are more things to buying a car good service station , cheap consumables, excellent customer service - these things you have forgotten easily.

VW Polo is basically a small car and technology is not even in tune with  Europe let alone features but you swear buy it simply because its a VW  nothing else.Its AMC cost  or even service cost is more in league of Honda City than a small cars.Regarding quality you don't have soft touch plastics even in top spec , Diesel is noisy then why attachment - just its VW.

Regarding Hyundai i20 plastics are okay better than MSIL but not even to com petition standards , car is underpowered and diesel is over priced.The soft suspension means it feels like your driving a boat and steering design its flawed.

i10 its top spec costs close  to price of Swift ZXI which is bigger a segment above - alll this for ABS and airbags.

Santro was good and yes woke up maruti but without Maruti the so called competition will make owning cars a thing of past for middle class.

EDIT:

@nishu - You rightly pointed out.

One more thing , Ford Figo, GM beat or spark are really VFM but people tend to overlook them just because its Chevrolet.

Its time we stop criticizing MSIL too much and focus on other brands which are living in feel good factor of the past rather than present.I feel we should not overlook minute things even luxury segment like poor air con to LHD controls and unusable run flat tyre - these are unexcusable

GOLF2011-08-10 15:54:43

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If this is true' date=' then what the Hyundai is doing !!

Is Alto is overpriced or i10 w.r.t its competitiors ?

Or its the Dzire vs Etios ??

?

Maruti Suzuki is name always associated with Brand loyality & proper Service backup. Even with their Monopoly insales, their Company, Dealer & Service Centre guys are Well-behaved & commited towards the Customer service.

So is their Overall Ambience at that places.
[/quote'] You are true Dr. . HMIL cars are also overpriced. But we were discussing MSIL here. My family too owned 4 Maruti cars( 3 M800 + 1 wagon R). I am not biased against Maruti. I myself driven a 800 for two years. Last year i went to get my 800 serviced and i found one of the biggest dealers workshop too over-crowded. When he told that me you will get the car tomorrow. I asked why, he replied, Don't you see how many cars are parked here. When i asked service person to change transmission oil of my car. He replies : Sir the difference in driving after change of transmission oil can only be felt by an expert. Even if i change you will not know. He pretended me to be a fool who will not feel anything. The reason, most of their buyers just listen to this ***** talk because they simply buy a car for its low cost of upkeep /A to B commute/mileage/ resale value etc. & blindly believe in whatever they say.

@Golf

I have not drawn any comparison between VW and MSIL. And FYI the same 1.2 3 cylinder engine with less power than indian version is launched in european market also . Actually i need not because there is no comparison.ashikawa2011-08-10 16:04:56

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This topic and discussion has all the trappings of developing into an overheated debate. Let's keep our emotions in check and I suggest members to top up the coolant levels before spilling words that can't be taken back.

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There is a saying in Tamil: "Tree that bears fruit will get more stones thrown at it" so criticism is not a bad thing, means that you have reached a state where people are going to notice your every single move and give their feed back.

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I have interacted with Maruti,Hyundai,Tata and Ford as their vendor.Be frank Hyundai will always entertain korean vendors and suppliers and they will always squeeze indian suppliers while negotiating.In case of maruti they are better customer and provide some comfort to their vendors in terms of payment.So that they have strong vendor base in India and 1000s of companies in Gurgaon area is surviving because of Maruti .They are the one of the biggest contributor towards Indian Economy other side Hyundai facing legal action from customs for irregularities in payment of customs duty past 5 years.So please undesrstand majority of money spending for buying maruti is circu

lating Inside India and Hyundai is taking money to korea.

somehow i took decision not to buy hyundai cars after my cousin's 3 yr old accent's chasis and bonnet got corroded and he had spend 80 k for repairing.But i like steering of i10,i20 and Accent.

@Golf:Maruti realised that they are not getting ABS supply as much as required and so wisely they have provided same only in ZXI/ZDI version where they get more profit.You will get bluetooth doggle for 3K from outside.So dont worry about that.

@Ash:I do not know which city you are living.But in case of Gurgaon we have 5 maruti dealers and their service centres.The service is too good and they will give you feed back call within 1 week of repair/service and in case you give less than 10/10 they will ask you the reason and they will provide free trouble shooting service even you reduce one mark.Anyway past 2 years i am experiencing royal treatment from Maruti service centre.If you have any complaint call to their customer care and lodge complaint.If it is genuine maruti will take action against dealer.

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I would say we are are a little too critical of Maruti but to an extent. Maruti is a manufacturer which knows this market like the back of its hand. And the quality parts that everyone is talking about in a Hyundai, is not manufactured by Hyundai. It is outsourced to a supplier, who makes this parts. So not having such high quality parts, is not Maruti's disability, it its decision, this is what it feels will be most accepted by the public. It is not working for the 10000 odd forum members across the country, it is working for the million of buyers, its cars find home every year.

People talk of quality. Is steering rattle a quality? Maruti cars sell because, there have never ever been any major niggles that one had to think twice about. Iw ill say one think Hyundai, may know how to source better quality interior parts, Maruti knows how to engineer a car better.

Maruti has benefited because of its name, that is a correct thought. But who has created this name, this reputation? its Maruti. Who has maintained this name? Again Maruti. So if people think that Maruti's sales dept. is not being made to work very hard, its because, there service dept. is compensating.

And its not that others have not tried. Chevy promise has been running unsuccessfully since eternity. Spark is a successful Chevy car, while similar selling Estilo and A-star are duds?

Maruti cars come with amongst the best technologies in the market. The engines it is coming out with are both the best engines in its class there are. The 1.2 in Honda is the only challenger to the crown. The engines in i20, Polo don't even come close. Polo is louder than a Bolero, while i20's engines have not been able power its ac at all.

The 40k bookings indicate the faith people have in Maruti. People have similar faith in Hyundai also, as do they have in Honda or Toyota, the extent of it varies. We have seen Verna rack up bookings as have we seen Etios. We saw the first 2 months of Jazz sales, how much people have faith in Honda.

Overall the fact is that Maruti's cars don't have many drawbacks which would be a make or break point. They have the most well rounded car in their class. You would not expect any major trouble during ownership. Lemons are there, but what matters is the ratio of the mangoes to the lemons.

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I am with rahul1810,it is a fact that maruti knows out market better than others and hence the cars they produced are really very competitive and value for money.

Which manufacturer provides the cars of the same level at the maruti's price?

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Overall the fact is that Maruti's cars don't have many drawbacks which would be a make or break point. They have the most well rounded car in their class. You would not expect any major trouble during ownership. Lemons are there' date=' but what matters is the ratio of the mangoes to the lemons.[/quote']

@rahul - Very aptly written

many people have asked why maruti does not develop India specific model.The answer is simple - scale of investment which like all Japanese firms are conservative in investing abroad.Take the case of Toyota itself it created its own luxury brand when it could have brought Jaguar in late 1980s.

What I  wanted to put forward in this discussion was that we very critical of all new MSIL products as if the alternatives don't have any niggles.What we forget is buying car nowdays involves more things rather than sticking to guns for  to some missing features or so called quality.

If MSIL products have deficiencies then it should be highlighted but  the same yardstick should be applied to Mercedes , BMW , Audi , VW  or any other manufacturer.

GOLF2011-08-11 08:03:25

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well this had to happen sometime.

Why do some people buy Polo or i20 or Fabia rather than the old and trusted Maruti's ?

 

Maruti has understood the Indian mentality of an fuel efficiency and low cost of maintenance and lets face it they are sticking to the basics.

 

Maruti is still successful because they are catering to a large number of population which isnt ready to move up the ladder of luxury hatch backs. The only reason why Hyundai has made a deep cut is because at the cost of Maruti or a bit more they are offering semi-premium interiors and alike Maruti they are easy to maintain.

 

Every single time Maruti has tried to move up the ladder they have failed be it with Baleno or Grand Vitara and now with Kizashi.

 

As long as Indians demand VFM and cars light on they pocket Maruti will keep cars rolling.

 

Now that Swift is entering 6-7 lakh bracket buyers would surely compare the equipment with other cars in the same category. Customers will also look at the touch and feel aspect where maruti sorely looses out.

People who are against Swift priced at 7 lakh will look for alternatives while others would buy it. As simple as it gets.

 

 
sarabjeet2011-08-11 08:53:20

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Mostly new car buyers prefer Maruti and Hyudai because of Budjet restrictions and they want cars with better and proven service netwrok.For second car people will be ready to shed few more lakh and upgrade themselves to Honda/Toyota/Skoda/VW etc.New swift is going to stand out from all other Maruti Cars and it can match 90% qualities of their other Japaneese /European competetiors.I think  on road  price of Swift ZXi & ZDi will be around 6.25L & 7.0L respectively in Delhi.So ZDi is going to be alteast 1 L cheaper than Polo.

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Well,after I bought a Skoda I understood what a Maruti and Toyota is.They are really ease of mind brands.Its not that skoda is bad,they are also good now a days,but Toyota is better and Maruti is best(I mean they are nearly same but still Maruti is better than Toyota).

Maruti is firstly cheaper to buy and maintain.

It is also as much reliable as much the others are.

Wherever you go whenever you go you find a service center.

Same features,same performance,same body style,same joy to drive..then why should i buy a Polo 1.2 over a Swift ZXi by paying about 1 lacs extra.This is Maruti's trump card,they are really VFM.

About the Sarbjeet's touch and feel factor,I'd say that "Do you drive with steering in hands or dash in hand"?

Secondly,i too have amny times seated in a Polo/Fabia/i20/Jazz and I can't believe that Swift is far behind them,specially when you see the price difference.

Here I find the Marutis compared to the cars far expensive as compared to them,I'd say that "Compare the car first with the price you pay and then with the other cars".TSiVipul2011-08-11 11:48:22

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About the Sarbjeet's touch and feel factor' date='I'd say that "Do you drive with steering in hands or dash in hand"?

[/quote']

Yes i am very particular about these things. Owned 3 swifts in the past out of which two of them where diesels and let me tell you that the rattling and squeeks are very annoying.

People will look at it now because you will buy a swift @ 7 lakhs

Secondly' date='i too have amny times seated in a Polo/Fabia/i20/Jazz and I can't believe that Swift is far behind them,specially when you see the price difference.

Here I find the Marutis compared to the cars far expensive as compared to them,I'd say that "Compare the car first with the price you pay and then with the other cars".[/quote']

Now the comparison would be more as swift comes closer to Polo territory. I have also stated in my previous post about the positives of cheap maintenance and zippy engine but Maruti doesn't have the over all feel good factor. The interiors of 17 lakhs Grand Vitara are same as current gen swift.

Isn't VW vento outselling or atleast challenging SX4 which has more features ?

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@Sarabjeet:

I think I have many times mentioned somewhere that Maruti has limited itself to the small cars only,as a result their bigger cars are nothing more than a flop.

Same is the story with the Grand Vitara.

The customer of that segment gives value to the quality of plastic used too,but the segment which is being talked about here is completely different.

most of the customers in this segment are either first buyers or have upgraded from a small car,now after an Alto/Wagon-R or any other one,you will find Swift like its the God of all.And same is here.

I have seen many customers saying "If it rattles then it may,but its cheap and easier on pocket".

I mean to say,EVERYTHING COMES AT A PRICE,and if someone is happier at lower one then why should they go high?

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@sarbajeet - like all owners of Posh-mobile in India you don't overtly criticise these brands for lack of features /quality or lack of technology? lack of variants?expensive services but jump the guns on VFM cars like Swift ,Estilo.

What I mean to say is that if Mercedes or BMW lack features or poor service it should be criticized more as you are paying premium.

The last generation E class , C class had poor quality yet nobody criticized it severely .Even the current E class Air con is poor but everything is muted it gets 9/10 in reviews but if this was a car from MSIL costing 4- 5 lakhs it would got 7/10 rating.This double standards or biasness is what I am against.

As for Polo with all compromises( from engines to headlamps and lack  of rear space )costs same price as a new swift then it lacks VFM.Even the so called plastic quality is poor I will say as it lacks soft touch plastics for a car costing Swift's price.

To sum it up , one should not hide behind the snob value of the brand instead list out negatives of that brand

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@Sarabjeet:

I have seen many customers saying "If it rattles then it may' date='but its cheap and easier on pocket".

I mean to say,EVERYTHING COMES AT A PRICE,and if someone is happier at lower one then why should they go high?[/quote']

Its not about Wagon-R or say Alto.

An Estilo VXI gets key less entry, electronically adjustable OVRM's while Swift VXi or Ritz VXi gets tacho meter and power windows.

It's not that Maruti did not have access to these parts they where loading cheaper cars with it.

Come to SX4 now tell me would you buy an SX4 or a Honda city or vento? Why would you choose to ignore SX4 ?

MSIL puts that same stereo system on an SX4 which it also installs in a Wagon R. These small things do play in a buyers mind when they do buy a car. Maruti has itself to blame for drop in sales of SX4.

On other hand Maruti has such an hit platform in form of Gypsy but Maruti is giving it a slow death.

What I mean to say is that if Mercedes or BMW lack features or poor service it should be criticized more as you are paying premium.

Mercedes where criticized all around the world. New E and C class where made by keeping in mind the feedback they got.

The last generation E class ' date=' C class had poor quality yet nobody criticized it severely .Even the current E class Air con is poor but everything is muted it gets 9/10 in reviews but if this was a car from MSIL costing 4- 5 lakhs it would got 7/10 rating.This double standards or biasness is what I am against.[/quote']

Yes because MSIL is a domestic car manufacturer and it is competeing with other domestic manufacturers who are selling cars almost at the same price.

As for Polo with all compromises( from engines to headlamps and lack? of rear space )costs same price as a new swift then it lacks VFM.Even the so called plastic quality is poor I will say as it lacks soft touch plastics for a car costing Swift's price.

Polo is about quality and brand value that's why it comands such rate and people are ready to pay for it. But remember VW was also criticised and as we all know VW is shortly coming up with a refresehed Polo and Vento.

Micra ,i20n Fabia and Jazz also fall under the same bracket. sarabjeet2011-08-11 13:31:22

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Just went through the entire debate. Interesting topic. I agree with Sarabjeet on the fact that products from Maruti which are in the same price range as some of the products from other companies completely deserve the criticism they receive.

I was until very recently driving a 2007 WagonR Vxi. When bought, we paid 4.11Lacs for the car. Regardless of the efficient service and the competent engine I was provided(which are pretty much expected from any car you buy), I feel the car was severely overpriced for the quality we received. I was extremely unhappy with the interiors and the rattling noises that had became a permanent feature from the 2nd year of ownership. I sincerely doubt the same would have happened with a i10 which had launched around the same time and was priced very near this car.

Anyways, even this time while buying a car, I test drove the SX4(petrol and diesel) and decided to go for the Polo 1.6 instead simply because the car seemed to drive better, built better, with better interiors and probably a better assurance of the fact that I wont hear rattles within 2 years of ownership. I admit, I probably would have gotten better service and probably more features with MS than what I am facing with VW but the product seems to be put together so much better that, it seemed like a better deal. For a car priced almost at 10lacs, they need to offer much better quality and assurance that the car would not suffer from the same rattling issues that ALL their products face.

This applies to all MS' products that are in the higher priced segments. The VFM formula that has worked wonders for MS in the lower priced segments has NOT and will NOT work in the higher segments unless the issues mentioned above are clarified. asethi9192011-08-13 16:32:11

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@Asethi and Sarabjeet:

I agree with you people on your point that the quality MS offers is still far behind the others.

Let me give two more examples for you people to show that this quality gap even widens after going up,like you may see in KIZASHI AND GRAND-VITARA.

But what my point is,how many people who are buying a Maruti Alto/Wagon-R/Swift/Ritz really can afford a Polo or Fabia?

What I mean to say is that,now a days diesel fuel has spoilt may people due to which they have already exceeded their budgets by a big margin to get a set of wheels,they have a good finance burden over their head and then they have to run the car.If those people buy an Alto or Wagon-R,then they really can save some of their pocket,but if they buy a Polo/Fabia then they will be sold in paying installments only.

Asethi:

You are driving a Polo 1.6 thing,still many times I have seen you asking the FE and most of the times you sound somewhat upset in those posts.Am I right?

If you would have had the load of an installment of 12-13000 per month and petrol price too then your running would have been shortened.Now consider a buyer who has already got a Swift after stretching a lot,then Swift is a better choice for him/her.Why?Because its low on after sales costs,high on FE and good performance.This is what the person needs and gets from this Maruti..

Same is with Wagon-R and Alto too.

@Sarabjeet:

I think you drive some golden wheels like BMW 5 series etc..no more words from my side,hoping you may have understood what I mean.TSiVipul2011-08-15 08:21:33

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@Vipul

you can also buy a fabia for around 4 lakhs right? leaving aside the FE issue and spare costs ( they arent cheaper than maruti so no point of raising concern of cost cutting) dont you think interior quality and plastic is way better than wagon R in the same price range ?

 

I also drive an A-star dude. smiley2.gif

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